This week, on the edge of Valentine’s Day, in the 250th year of the United States, and still in the afterglow of Benito Bad Bunny’s epic Super Bowl halftime show, I sat down with Esther Perel to talk about love.
Not the chocolate-and-roses kind. The hard kind. The kind that asks something of you.
The full video is above. Here’s what stayed with me, and what I think might stay with you. See the end for a full list of links and resources to topics and titles we referenced.
The Declaration of Independence Is Basically Divorce Papers
Look, I love me some founding documents. Great words. But let’s be honest: the Declaration of Independence is mostly a breakup letter. A long, dramatic list of grievances addressed to the King of England. You never respected us. You taxed our tea. We’re done.
Here we are 250 years later with another opportunity to renegotiate the terms of our connection. We’ve done it before: Reconstruction. Labor movements. Civil rights. Women’s rights. American Indian Movement. Each moment asking the same question: Who actually belongs here, and on what terms? What unites us now?
I shared some themes from my Atmos article on Declarations of Interdependence which sparked this live chat.
Esther flipped that into a question: What does the relationship require from me?
Not what do I want? but what does the relationship need?
That’s couples therapy language applied to a country. And honestly? We could use the session.
Love Is a Verb. So Is Citizen.
Esther reframed Valentine’s Day as a way for all of us to deepen our definition of love beyond the simplistic, romantic ideal reflected in so many stories.
That tracks because love, real love, not the Hallmark version, includes accountability and responsibility. “A willingness to be implicated in another person’s dignity” as she said. But that’s part of a long tradition of expanding the idea of love. That’s bell hooks. Love as care, commitment, and truth-telling. That’s Martin Luther King, Jr.’s non-sentimental love. And that’s Valarie Kaur today and the Revolutionary Love Project.
Revolutionary love isn’t soft. It’s disciplined. It asks you to love yourself, love others, and even love opponents, without surrendering truth. That’s a demanding posture.
It also echoes a core idea we’ve been building for years with How To Citizen. (first guest, Valarie!) Citizen is a verb. When the noun gets weaponized—when “citizen” is used to exclude, to intimidate, to build walls, and murder people—the verb rises up as a counter. The verb looks like neighbors protecting neighbors blowing the whistle, offering mutual aid Showing up.
Esther calls this civic intimacy. Acting in ways that protect others’ dignity and safety, not because it feels good but because the relationship requires it.
As Cornel West said, “Never forget that justice is what love looks like in public.” That’s the whole game.
Ancient Wisdom Isn’t Fringe. It’s the Cheat Code.
We talked about the Haudenosaunee Confederacy and the Great Law of Peace (more here) and spent some time specifically on the idea of seventh generation thinking. Every decision must consider its impact seven generations ahead.
That’s governance on a timeline most politicians can’t conceive of. They’re thinking about the next election cycle or the shift in the markets in the next few hours. The Haudenosaunee were thinking about people who wouldn’t be born for centuries.
Esther connected that to the sabbatical year in Jewish tradition: debt forgiveness, letting the land rest, leaving the edges of the harvest for the hungry. Interdependence encoded in ritual.
These ideas aren’t new. They’re ancient and available to all of us who maintain a connection to life and Earth. The fact that we keep treating them as radical tells you something about how far off course we’ve drifted. It’s time to come home.
You’re Not Falling in Love with AI. You’re Falling Into a Business Model.
Of course we talked about AI. You can’t have a conversation about relationships in 2025 without the chatbot in the room.
Here’s the tension I keep coming back to: most AI people encounter lives inside commercial platforms. These are not public squares or private spaces. They are essentially malls (h/t New_ Public). Every interaction is shaped by a business model optimized for engagement, not connection.
On the topic of loving AI, Esther recently told The New York Times “You’re falling in love with a business product.” All the snaps.
AI can also be a reflective tool. It can help you prepare for a hard conversation. It can surface blind spots. But it gets dangerous when it replaces relational risk, when we outsource intimacy to subscription software. The question isn’t whether we will be in relationship with AI. It’s how we position it inside the system of our lives. Does it deepen our relationships with ourselves, others, and nature? Or simulate one?
Vision Isn’t Fantasy. It’s Design.
I brought up Coraline Ada Ehmke’s book We Just Build Hammers and the work of speculative fiction writer Samuel R. Delany. Delany’s argument is simple and radical: you have to declare the world you want, even if it feels far-fetched, and then ask what needs to change in the world for that to be true.
Vision precedes policy. Imagination precedes infrastructure.
If you want a different kind of relationship, personal or civic, you have to picture it first. What does it feel like? What does it require? What would you have to change?
The Invitation
Esther closed by asking
When you think about interdependence in your life, where is it located? What are the parts that are involved? Is it people? Is it beyond human? Is it art, nature? Ideas?
What are the systems of interdependence that support you and that you are supporting and grounding?
Share it with both of us.
In America’s 250th year, in a moment of strain and redefinition, these questions feel urgent.
What does the relationship require from us now?
Happy Valentining. Happy citizening. Happy loving.
Resources Mentioned
Esther Perel — psychotherapist, bestselling author of Mating in Captivity and The State of Affairs, host of the podcast Where Should We Begin? and Entre Nous on Substack | estherperel.com
Esther on AI and intimacy — The New York Times Opinion podcast: “Esther Perel on Why A.I. Intimacy Feels Safe but Isn’t Real” GIFT LINK (January 2026); and on civic intimacy in this Substack post
How To Citizen — podcast co-created and executive produced by Baratunde Thurston | howtocitizen.com
bell hooks — All About Love: New Visions (2000), foundational text on the love ethic
The Haudenosaunee Confederacy & The Great Law of Peace — governance framework including seventh generation thinking I wrote about in Atmos
Valarie Kaur & The Revolutionary Love Project — movement to reclaim love as a force for justice; author of See No Stranger: A Memoir and Manifesto of Revolutionary Love | valariekaur.com
Coraline Ada Ehmke — We Just Build Hammers: Stories from the Past, Present, and Future of Responsible Tech (2025)
Samuel R. Delany — science fiction author and critical theorist whose work argues for declaring and building toward the world you want
Life With Machines — my media company where we ask how to live well with technology and not just endure it.
Thank you Eva Yaa Asantewaa, Laura L. Zielke, Diary of a Sacred Slut, Tariro Mundawarara, Rick, and many others for tuning into my live video with Esther Perel! Join me for my next live video in the app.
